Lech Walesa: What Russia is Doing Now Does Not Fit into this Era
When the Berlin Wall came down 25 years ago, it was a special day for Lech Walesa. The workers' leader and later president of Poland put his country on the road to democracy when he founded the trade union Solidarnosc.
Lech Walesa
There was strong opposition to Poland's communist regime at the Gdansk Shipyard. In 1980, it was where Lech Walesa founded the union Solidarnosc. Before that, he had been a member of an illegal striking committee. In 1988, shipyard workers ushered in regime in Germany's eastern neighbor. The events in Poland had a big influence on protests in East Germany, which eventually led to the fall of the Berlin Wall. DW spoke to Nobel Peace Prize laureate and former Polish President Lech Walesa about the events 25 years ago and the parallels to current developments in Ukraine.
DW: The fall of the Wall came as a surprise to politicians around the world. Were you surprised, too?
Lech Walesa: The Wall fell when German Chancellor Helmut Kohl and his Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher were on their first official visit to Poland. I remember this meeting quite well. We were sitting at a table and drinking tea. We were engaging in polite small talk about all kinds of things for a few minutes. I ended up interrupting the chitchat by asking Hans-Dietrich Genscher - What will you do if/when the Wall falls? The minister sat there for a moment and didn't say a word. He was obviously surprised by my question. He took a breath and said that it was highly improbable that that would happen during his lifetime. On the next day, the delegation had to cut their visit short because they received a message that the Wall was coming down. The events back then were able to take the biggest politicians of the time by surprise.
In the 1980s, I held many discussions with members of royal families and heads of states. No one believed we would manage to create this process of change in the peaceful manner that we did. What is important is that the entire process developed step by step and that's why it was successful. And it all began at the Gdansk Shipyard in 1980, when the whole world learned of Solidarnosc! After years of confrontation, the next big breakthrough happened in 1989 - the Polish "Round Table," the half-free elections and the first non-communist government in the communist Eastern bloc. We got the ball rolling to bring about change in all of Eastern and Central Europe. The result of this was the fall of the Wall.
Lech Walesa Streikführer 1980
Lech Walesa led protests at the Gdansk Shipyards in 1980
Did East Germans benefit from your endeavors in Poland to stand up to the communist regime?
A few weeks ago, I had the honor of receiving representatives of the then East German opposition at my office in Gdansk. During the meeting, they said how they envied us for being able to be part of such a strong movement that Solidarnosc was. We managed, for a fleeting moment, to rise up and show Poland and the world what kind of a force we are when we are together as Solidarnosc. Our German friends weren't as lucky as we were - they were never able to form a legitimate public movement.
They tried to adapt our experience to their circumstances - even back then, when the movement was new. They made contact with the Workers' Defense Committee, but they could not create the kind of momentum that we had. Maybe it was for the better. Because the anti-communist resistance was so strong in Gdansk and nowhere else in Europe, we were able to avoid a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union. Today we know that there were a number of factors that led to our freedom: the events at the Cegielski factory, the Prague Spring, the student strike on the coast, the 1980 strike and the founding of Solidarnosc, the round table, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the collapse of the Soviet Union. All of these events have to be seen as consecutive links in the chain of freedom.
Looking back to the fall of the Wall, is there anything you wish would have developed differently?
From today's perspective, I know I could have done things differently, maybe with a little more care. But generally speaking, I am happy with what I did. I'm not going to judge myself - I'll let others do that. I'll leave that up to historians.
Genscher Botschaft in Prag 30.09.2014
Genscher did not expect the Berlin Wall to fall in his life time
Today, we are criticized for our decisions made during the democratic change by those who were spectators back then. Those are the ones who shout the loudest. But we know, of course, only those who do nothing make no mistakes. My friends and I are accused of not settling scores with the communists - some are angry that we didn't put them on trial. But that wasn't my idea of democratic change. I wanted to create this new order on the basis of understanding and not on the basis of war. And I wanted to leave it up to democracy and the courts to settle the score. I will always defend this approach. Criminals have to be put on the stand, but I didn't want a witch hunt. Look what happened in Romania - they settled the scores there and what happened? The situation didn't ease up until Emil Constantinescu became president. Look at how many years Romania lost and how much time they'll need to catch up economically with other countries in the region.
Reunified Germany is today Europe's strongest economy. What do you expect from Germany economically and politically?
I have been saying for years that today's politics lacks leadership. I would expect the USA to position itself at the top of global politics for the Western world and Germany to do the same for a united Europe. I support what former Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski said a few years ago. He said he wasn't worried about a strong positioning of Germany in Europe - he expects it! This sentence reflects a trend that has been about for many years. We need to rethink - to not think about national states and interests, but about the state of Europe.
When the Lech Walesa Prize was awarded to the Euromaidan, you said that the world should show solidarity with Ukraine and that we should stand up for freedom again. Do you see parallels between the situation in the Eastern bloc countries 25 years ago and the current one in Ukraine?
Bildergalerie Europäisches Zentrum der Solidarność
Solidarnosc was the most powerful anti-communist movement in the Eastern bloc
Yes and no. On the one hand, I see the same passion that we had when we stood up to the communist powers. On the other, I see that Ukrainians are not as resolute as we were in the 80s. We didn't allow it to come to war back then. And regardless of what people are saying, there is a war going on there. I call solidarity and help for the Ukrainian people, so that they can organize themselves. And I want Ukrainians to come to find unity over the top priorities. The momentum during and after the Orange Revolution was squandered. Nonetheless, we cannot leave Ukraine alone. It is in our economic interest and it is also a question of security.
What should the EU do regarding the Ukraine crisis?
This is a very difficult situation. When it comes to sanctions, we have to make sure they are balanced - just enough so that they can be felt in Russia, but not that we let Russian countermeasures hurt Europe's - and Poland's - economy too much. We are suffering most under all this but we cannot turn a blind eye to Russian politics in Ukraine. During the awards ceremony for the Euromaidan representatives, I said: "We must not look away!"
Ukraine Krise Räumung des Maidan Kiew 09.08.2014
Walesa says Europe, and especially Poland, should show solidarity with Kyiv
Should Poland take the lead?
Definitely. Today, we are the main representative of Ukrainian interests in Europe. We cannot deny this obligation. If we, as Ukraine's closest neighbor, do nothing, then maybe these "little green men" will take over in eastern Ukraine. But in a month or two, they will be knocking on our door. And what then? We cannot lie to ourselves. These are not just rebels, stateless people, who are fighting for a piece of land for themselves. We cannot simply accept it because it would put into question the very foundation of Europe and the world. Of course, we have to be very careful and there needs to be responsibility and a willingness to engage in dialogue on both sides.
You are one of the biggest freedom fighters of the 20th century. What consequences do you think the new conflicts in Ukraine and the disputes with Russia mean for Europe?
I was raised in an era of division, an era of blocs and borders. Today, we live in an era of intellect, of information and globalization. What makes Europe strong is its partnership and respect. What Russia is doing right now does not fit into this era. It looked as though the years of open war were over in Europe - it seemed as though we would never see tanks rolling into countries in Europe any more. No one would have guessed that a passenger plane could be shot down from the sky above European land. Even a year ago, all of this seemed impossible to everyone. But this is what is happening in Europe now. When I see what is happening in the east, I feel deeply sad. Ukraine had an opportunity, but it was squandered. Now the situation is more volatile than 25 or 10 years ago. An election will not be enough to win over there. Ukrainians need to take responsibility for themselves, for their country and for the development of Europe. We should help them, but in the end, they have to make the decisions and take action. That is why their unity and our solidarity with them are so important today. DW